Solidarity, collaboration and justice – the future of food systems full transcript
[Music]
Host [00:01] You’re listening to Make Change Happen, the podcast from IIED that offers insights on issues affecting the path towards a fairer, more sustainable world.
Annabelle Bladon [00:16] Hello and welcome to the Make Change Happen podcast from IIED. I'm Annabel Bladen, a senior researcher at IIED where I lead our work on aquatic food systems. And joining me today is Giulia Nicolini, a fellow researcher and social scientist who works on food. Welcome, Giulia.
Giulia Nicolini [00:35] Hi Annabelle, thanks for having me. Great to be here today.
Annabelle Bladon [00:39] So World Food Day is coming up, which marks the UN Food and Agriculture Organization's 80th birthday. And so, in this episode, we're going to be talking about food systems, focusing in particular on that often-neglected topic of food produced through fishing and aquaculture, variously known as aquatic food, blue food and seafood.
I've already broken podcast rules and used a bunch of jargon. So, Giulia, as our resident food systems expert, could you briefly explain to listeners what exactly are food systems?
Giulia Nicolini [01:13] So I think a lot of people will be familiar with agriculture, fisheries and aquaculture that you already mentioned and perhaps even something like the food industry or the food sector of the economy. Food systems is really an idea that tries to bring together all of those activities and show how they're all connected. Also thinking about the people and organisations involved in all of those activities.
And more broadly thinking about things like the environment, health, how do they all connect? How do they all affect one another? So it's great to be talking about food systems today. And actually, we haven't made a podcast on either food systems or the ocean for a few years. So I think it's probably long overdue on our part as well, isn't it?
Annabelle Bladon [01:58] Now you could say that food systems are in trouble. The world is not on track to meet targets for addressing hunger and malnutrition. We're seeing huge amounts of food loss and waste and global supply chains are becoming increasingly wobbly.
Food systems are also making trouble. They are a major factor in nature loss and climate change. Fishing, for example, is by far the main driver of nature loss from the ocean. And yet food systems also offer potential solutions to a range of global challenges beyond food and nutrition security.
Sustainable food systems can provide jobs, they can support economies, reduce poverty. But increasingly, we hear that to realise this potential, we need transformation, fundamental change. Giulia, what does this mean? What does transformation look like?
Giulia Nicolini [02:46] I think transformation is quite a complex idea. And even though a lot of people agree on what we'd like a better food system to look like, it's difficult sometimes to agree on how to get there, so transformation's quite a complex but super interesting topic and I think blue foods and aquatic foods, the focus of our podcast today, could play a really big role in that.
[Music]
Annabelle Bladon [03:16] So bringing us back to World Food Day, FAO's tagline this year is hand in hand for better foods and a better future. So a really strong theme of global collaboration.
They're sending this message that by working together across governments, sectors and communities, we can transform food systems to ensure that everyone has access to a healthy diet and a future on a healthy planet. I'm wondering how does this call for collaboration resonate with you, Giulia, and your work?
Giulia Nicolini [03:46] I think collaboration is something that's quite foundational to our work at IIED. Most of us strive to work in partnership with others, whether that's local grassroots organisations or national governments, all the way up to UN bodies. But I think recently we've also been striving to go a little bit beyond collaboration and perhaps thinking more about ideas of solidarity and justice.
So, recognising that sometimes when we work in partnership with others, we're not always starting from the same place. We might be starting from a place of unequal privilege and resources and power.
Annabelle Bladon [04:29] Something else that comes to mind for me when I think about collaboration in food is that connection between the aquatic and land-based elements of food systems. So, whether you're talking about research, policy or practice in food, this is generally totally focused on land-based agriculture, with fisheries and aquaculture sitting in a completely different and disconnected sphere often.
And Giulia, you and I have talked a lot about the missed opportunities for learning between sectors and potential dangers of this disconnect.
Giulia Nicolini [05:01] There's definitely so much that we could be learning from each other. The conversation around regenerative agriculture, for example, at the moment, this idea of going beyond just sustaining our ecosystems to actually replenishing them and regenerating them, I think it's been interesting to see that being picked up by aquaculture as well, thinking about how seaweed farming, for example, could be a way to regenerate our oceans.
Just going back to that idea of solidarity, that's something that we have also been thinking about at IIED in relation to this idea of just transition. And that's an idea that emerged from the energy sector, thinking about how workers in fossil fuel industries might be protected from a transition towards greener forms of energy, more renewable forms of energy.
So thinking about how, if we're going to transform food systems so that they're better for health and for the environment, how can we do that in a way that protects people who currently work in aspects of the food system that might need to be radically changed?
Annabelle Bladon [06:17] Yeah. We asked Foodrise, formerly known as Feedback Global, for their thoughts on solidarity and collaboration, which are actually two of their core values.
Here's a response from Amelia Cookson, who is a campaigner working on industrial aquaculture.
Amelia Cookson [06:35] Foodrise is a charity transforming the food system for climate, nature and justice. So for us, solidarity means taking bold action to call out injustices and exposing how corporate power exploits people and planet in our food system.
This year, we published a new report called 'Ocean Takeover', exposing how Greek sea bass and sea bream farming is taking fish from West and Southern Africa to use in feed. Global collaboration enabled us to spotlight the impacts on communities across this extractive supply chain. At our launch event, we were able to really centre these communities.
This included representatives from Mauritania, Senegal and Gambia, all of which are impacted by the extraction of wild fish used in feed, and communities from Poros, a small Greek island, who are living near these fish farms and facing the threat of institute expansion in their waters. This approach shows that global collaboration works, as we are pleased to share that the Greek government has recently rejected plans for fish farm expansion on Poros and is revising the entire National Aquaculture Plan, too.
As a small organisation, a huge challenge is the corporate control of our food system and the power imbalances that come with that. For example, in our 'Fishy Finances' report we published this year, we revealed the vast sums of finance being funnelled into the global salmon farming industry and the subsidies that's supporting its growth, too. But all is not lost. There is a huge amount of energy around the world that is resisting this industry and demonstrating that when we work together, so much is possible.
[Music]
Annabelle Bladon [08:12] So loads to unpack there. Firstly, this story of how sea bass and sea bream production in Greece is negatively impacting not only local ecosystems and communities in Greece, but also in the global South. This is a really good example of how what we produce, import and choose to purchase and consume here in Europe can have potentially devastating consequences on the other side of the world.
And it's not an isolated example. Foodrise published some similar research last year on the Norwegian salmon farming industry, which showed how the salmon on our supermarket shelves is harming communities in West Africa too.
So, like many farmed fish, salmon need feed. In this instance, it comes in the form of fish oil from small wild fish caught in West Africa. This process is contributing to overfishing and essentially it's diverting a really critical source of food and jobs from millions of people every year, many of whom are quite vulnerable. And those small fish that are used in fish oil, so your anchovies and your sardines, these are some of the most nutritious food sources around.
They're particularly critical for child development. They also tend to be more accessible and affordable in coastal communities than other sources of protein. I think this expansion and intensification of aquaculture often touted as a solution to feed the world. But at the same time, we're seeing here that it's actually fuelling hunger and malnutrition.
Giulia Nicolini [09:42] It's a really powerful example. It kind of goes to the heart of the power imbalances that I kind of mentioned earlier and the need to sometimes go beyond collaboration.
[Music]
Annabelle Bladon [09:57] So I want to take us back to West Africa, or rather those communities all over the world who depend on small-scale or artisanal fisheries. Thankfully, over the last few years, we've seen masses of evidence emerge demonstrating just how crucial small-scale fisheries are to sustainable development and the potential role that they could play in transforming food systems.
We know now that the small-scale fishery sector employs the majority of people who are involved in fisheries, more than 90%. But our failure, I guess, to give this sector proper visibility and attention for so long has also led to its political and social exclusion, making it really challenging for people in the sector to have a voice in decision making.
So, with that in mind, we wanted specifically to bring the perspective of a small-scale fisher into this conversation. We spoke to Gaoussou Gueye, who is president of the African Confederation of Professional Fishing Organizations based in Senegal, which represents men and women in the small-scale fishery sectors across Africa.
Let's hear what Gaoussou had to say about collaboration and solidarity in food systems.
Gaoussou Gueye (translated by Jérémy Davis) [11:08] My name is Gaoussou Gueye, I am the president of the African Confederation of Small-Scale Fisheries’ Professional Organisations, based in Senegal, which brings together 29 African countries.
For me, collaboration in the global food system should not be confined to four walls. Sometimes even artisanal fisheries, which play an extremely important role in these food systems in terms of protein, are never around the table. If we want sincere and frank collaboration, all stakeholders need to be around the table and on an equal footing.
We have launched a call to action. We have carried out awareness-raising work to show them the importance of the voluntary guidelines, which are the first international instrument dedicated to small-scale fisheries.
We have set up joint commissions and developed communication strategies for COFI [FAO Committee on Fisheries], we recently demonstrated this to the European Union in conferences with the African Union and ECOWAS, and we’ve worked with other organisations that were not on the same continent as us. We have worked with other fishermen from Latin America, Central America, Europe and Asia.
We cannot talk about sustainable fishing and access to fishing if the rules of the game are not respected. There are other sectors that compete with the small-scale fishing sector, such as oil, gas, tourism and others. That is why, when we speak out, we advocate for a zone that is reserved for small-scale fishing and for clear rules in terms of governance and transparency that everyone will have to agree to.
[Music]
Giulia Nicolini [12:53] Wow, it's really great to hear from Gaoussou about everything that they've managed to achieve. I think it's really interesting to have those two examples.
I think Gaoussou mentioned quite a few different groups and he also mentioned the voluntary guidelines. They're quite interesting forms of collaboration, I wonder if maybe you could explain a little bit about them, Annabelle?
Annabelle Bladon [13:19] The guidelines he mentioned, the voluntary guidelines on small-scale fisheries, these provide a framework grounded in human rights for governments and other stakeholders to support the small-scale fishery sector and its contribution to sustainable development.
They were developed through a really long and intensive participatory process facilitated by FAO involving more than 4,000 stakeholders and including of course those small-scale fisheries organisations. Getting those guidelines finalised and adopted was a massive achievement in terms of cooperation and inclusion, and they've been hugely influential in shifting mindsets and narratives on the sector and raising its visibility.
Several countries have as a result developed national plans of action to align their policies with the guidelines, including Senegal. Many others are in the process. But of course, they're guidelines, it's not a legally binding instrument. So, implementation is challenging and requires political will and money.
The call-to-action Gaoussou mentioned was basically a demand by small-scale fisheries organisations for governments to uphold the commitments they've already made through the guidelines and to take more urgent action to ensure that small-scale fisheries can continue providing the benefits that they do. It's been supported by several civil society organisations and NGOs, including IIED, and the fight continues.
[Music]
Annabelle Bladon [14:48] So, we're coming to the end of our conversation. We've heard how two very different organisations are fighting for justice in aquatic food systems.
To close, we asked Amelia from Foodrise the impossible question: what is the one big change they would want to see that can take us towards better foods and a better future?
Amelia Cookson [15:10] We need to move the food system's goalposts. Currently we have a system that revolves around the mindless pursuit of growth, making money for shareholders while people and planet pay the price. This is driving overfishing and deforestation.
We need to move towards a food system that prioritises people and planet. This means ensuring people have a right to good food, for example, and that supply chains are just, enabling both nature and people to thrive.
Annabelle Bladon [15:36] I think Amelia summed that up really well. It sounds so obvious, but we simply cannot make change without putting people at the centre of that change and upholding their rights.
A lot of our work on aquatic food systems focuses on understanding the potential trade-offs between the ecological and socioeconomic goals in aquatic food systems. Basically, ensuring that the people at the heart of that production – fishers, fish workers, farmers – are properly supported and incentivised to engage with and lead that change.
I'm not saying this is the one big fix, there are a whole host of changes needed, not least radical reform of harmful subsidies and investments. But I do believe that this approach of centring local people and workers is fundamental to the future of food systems.
Giulia, what thoughts did Amelia's statement provoke for you?
Giulia Nicolini [16:31] Going back to that idea of food systems transformation, we've been thinking a lot about what shifts in diets in parts of the world like Europe and North America. What might the implications be for the global food system?
We both advocate for eating more seafood, more blue foods. We think they could be a really great way to tackle food insecurity and malnutrition and a whole host of other problems. But that has to be done thoughtfully and responsibly.
So, yeah, I think just maybe bringing it back to the World Food Day theme, I think it shows the power of collaboration, talking outside our own bubbles, trying to get other perspectives. But as Amelia said, really centering people in these transformations, in this change.
Annabelle Bladon [17:25] I think that's a good note to end on. Thank you, Giulia, for this conversation. Thank you to Amelia and Gaoussou for giving us great food for thought, and thank you for listening!
You can find more information on the themes we touched on today on our website.
[Music]
Host [23:15] If you’d like to send us your thoughts and feedback on the discussion, email us at [email protected]. That’s [email protected].
You can find out more information about this podcast and our guests, and learn more about IIED’s research around the issues covered in today’s episode, at iied.org/podcast, where you can also listen to previous episodes and browse the rest of our website for more information about IIED and our work.
[Music]
Soundcloud
TuneIn
Spotify
iTunes
